The completed landscape by Sterling Wells. The Castle of Enchantment (Melrose Hill), 2024, watercolor on paper. Photo: Nik Massey
Photograph of the Castle of Enchantment in 1956. Photo: Los Angeles Times.
In the interview excerpts below, the filmmakers reflect on their process, their relationship to the Castle, and the questions that shaped the film.
How do you describe the film to someone who's never heard about it?
Weston: I describe it as the blurring of a kind of a fictionalization of a very real thing. One of my friends recently used this word palimpsest, and I thought that that was kind of sharp. This rewriting of the way a thing was – like the erasure and rewriting of history. I think there's a lot of that, quite literally, in the film.
Karolina: So there's three acts: The first one is archival, and there's two characters who are looking into the archive of the Castle. And the second act is focusing on a painter, Sterling Wells, who is at the site of the castle that you see earlier in the archival photos, but in a different way – through the eyes of the painter. And then the third act is the ghost of Josie Hopkins returning to the castle site to rebuild it in accordance to her vision of the space and to maintain, or to bring it back into the present.
Something that we talked about a lot in the making of it, and also with Sterling, is that in a way, it's about the process of being artists. Being an artist, or what that means, and the preservation or lack thereof, that artists face when it comes to their work. So, Sterling's making a painting, and then the castle is another art piece, and then the film itself is another work.
Weston: Our aim was also to bring every element of the story of building the castle to life in the film except for Milt. Milt is the one thing missing…and by doing that, that almost augments him even more so as a figure in the story. He's like the absent piece.
Karolina: The negative space.
The film takes a close look at the painter Sterling Wells’ artistic response to the Castle. Can you tell me a little about Sterling and what drew you in about his work and process?
Weston: How this all started was Karolina and I wanted to do something with our friend, Sterling, the painter. We've always been really fascinated with his process and the stories that develop around the making of his work.
The production is as captivating as the thing that he actually makes, most of the time. We didn't know exactly what kind of project we wanted to do with him, but we were just sort of open, kept our antennas out. We get this text from him in early 2024, and he says, “I'm going to this location – maybe you guys want to join me tomorrow?,” and adds a link to this Esotouric article that was written about the Castle property and what was, at the time, this crazy commercial real estate move where they were going to take a historic apartment building that was a couple miles north, and they were actually going to lift it up onto a trailer and relocate it onto the now vacant 4857 lot [where the Castle was]. So, they put in a permit for this and everything. By the time we went down there we had cleared our day and started filming with Sterling.
Karolina: Well, an important aspect of his practice that we find really interesting is that when he goes to sites, he's responding to the history of landscape painting in general, which often covers very idealistic, large scale spaces, but his landscape practice zooms in on often very overlooked places in L.A., and places that are falling apart or in disrepair. And so, I think, his response to the Castle brings that same specific perspective that he has. So to me, that's always been really incredible to focus on things in L.A. that people just overlook, and to give attention and a sort of reverence and respect to a space that is not given that under other circumstances, and the Castle is kind of in that situation as well.
Weston: So, we go down there and we find this incredibly dirty and discombobulated lot, that's got the remnants of this amazing vernacular home. Sterling tends to paint in bodies of water, and the pool became this thing of interest to him.
Karolina: And it was right after an atmospheric river storm. So, the pool was full of rainwater. And it was a race against time because as the water evaporated, he would have no more water to paint with. He was there every single day for a week or so. And we came as often as we could.
Advertisement for The Siamese Castle, a Thai restaurant that inhabited the Castle in the 1980s after Hopkins’ had left, via Esotouric.
Archival research related to the Castle was central to the film’s storytelling. Can you tell me about that process, what you found, and some of the highlights about the Castle’s long history?
Karolina: It all kind of started with that first Esotouric article that Sterling sent us as a launching point. And then a relative of Milt and Josie’s, brought up [the television program] Ralph Story’s Los Angeles, and that it was once featured. First, we were trying to find that episode. The process involved reaching out to various institutions with different archives, and trying to access material, and running up against things that no longer exist, because they weren't preserved, or things that exist but were inaccessible.
We found all of the scripts for Ralph Story’s show are at the Los Angeles Central Library, but then we couldn't find the episode. So, it was this process of searching and things unfolding. It was a mystery. Running up against walls and making decisions of should we then not go down this path or should we kind of make up what we wish was there? Which became one of the structures in the filmmaking process and the editing process; this blurring between what is actually history, and then what does it mean to tell history and where's the line between enchantment, magical thinking, and actual fact?
Weston: I think the summation of the whole archival process really helped inform a lot of that blurring, and really telling us that's where the film needed to go. There was an intense research period after we did about a week of filming with Sterling at the site. I went to the Central Library a number of times, we went to the University of Southern California. We went to UCLA, the Film & TV Archive there. We had another producer working with us who dug up a bunch of stuff, including material at UC Santa Barbara, because the attention on the Castle was national.
By the late 2000s, the Castle of Enchantment had fallen into disarray, and much of the site was demolished in the 2010s. How did you approach making art about a place that is largely in ruins?
Karolina: Well, the ruins are very rich material, despite them being ruins, so it never felt like there was a shortage of direction to go to. And really, it gave us more space for more opportunities to imagine things, and I think if the Castle had been still standing, the film would have gone a totally different direction. So really, it being in ruins is a key aspect.
Weston: That's funny to think about; if we had made this film, or gone and filmed, and the house was there. That would have been a totally different experience. I think ruination brings about a lot of questions. It's very fertile for the imagination, but it brings about a lot of questions about politics and policy, and the use of land. I mean, L.A. is constantly in the intersection of questions about land use.
And thinking about that area, there was a big part of the project where we were connecting it to the development of Western [Ave], which has all these blue chip galleries now. So, there was a lot of thinking about the Castle being adjacent to this area that is not quite Koreatown, and it's not quite…it's kind of this liminal zone. The only thing to really protect that area is the Historic Melrose Hill [Historic Overlay Preservation Zone] that's on the same block, but, like, one parcel zone above the Castle.
Karolina: It being in ruins is also something that speaks to the nature of L.A. and so much of L.A. has to do with Hollywood, where things are facades, referencing other things. It’s all sets. And the castle was also kind of that way; it was built in that same style. So, I think it being in ruins is a key aspect of it existing in L.A., as opposed to somewhere else in the country.
Filmmakers Karolina Lavergne and Weston Lyon directing actor Joyce Sindel on her performance of the ghost of Josie Hopkins. Photo: Jenny Haare, Producer.
Your research uncovered Josie’s discontent with living inside of what became a popular roadside attraction. Can you talk about why you revived the ghost of Josie instead of the maker, Milton?
Weston: A few years ago I was reading these Japanese ghost stories that were the source material for this film Kwaidan. A lot of it talked about how what drives this fantastic realm is a discontent. You know, the stirring of something that was never resolved.
So, that's when we started thinking about, well, what if the haunting of this site, for the character, was just this action that just repeats every night? Josie just does it again and again and again...and through that we can not only continue to tell a story about how the thing was actually built, but then also to kind of give her flesh and bone. And to make that leap from, you know, documentation, photography, into somebody who's actually been cast and is moving about our present world.
Jenn: And then she kind of makes the site in her own image, or her ghost renews it according to her own vision.
Karolina: Yeah. Because the thing about Josie, too, is – Milt built this for her, but it was his dream, his idea of what she would want. And in the archival material, she doesn't have a lot of agency or presence or personality. Milt gets to speak and express himself through the making. So yeah, we kind of wanted to tell the history in a different way – from her perspective – and give her more autonomy.
It seems like you all have done a lot of thinking about the need for documentation, advocacy, and preservation of vernacular, historic, and cultural sites of interest through this project. Can you speak to that?
Weston: I mean, it's hard when you don't have capital, and you don't have political pull. You don't have the means to, I guess, play ball with the market. I think it's difficult to protect things or try to imagine how a space can be, more in a community sense and landmark sense. So, I don't know. In a weird way, we've just filmed our half hour statement on that.
Karolina: Yeah, I do kind of think that there are the big official ways you can preserve something, but then also as artists, this is how we preserve things--like, this film is the preservation effort that we are capable of. And I think it's just as valid and as strong a statement as any.
Going forward, what is your hope for the public memory of the Castle of Enchantment?
Weston: Well, we wanted it to be a park. At the very least, it should be a community garden. You know, they can even parcel out 4853. Keep 4857, turn it into a garden. Let a lot of that existing landscaping become the beds and, like, do something that's going to be a little more impactful than just putting up a Popeyes or something.
Karolina: Especially because it is such a pedestrian neighborhood, it would really be used.
Jennifer Joy Jameson Merchant is a public folklorist and independent consultant specializing in documenting, sustaining, and interpreting cultural heritage—from living traditions to the built environment. Follow along @joyamerica.
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